Faerun Lore, good guys and bad guys

[Shorjahl]

Alright, I'm admittedly dumb and a neophyte with this kind of thing, but I'm pretty dang confused about who are good guys and bad guys. Ao, if your answer is "it depends, the world is morally grey" then just ignore this.

My understanding of Drow (except for a particular one with two scimitars and a big cat) are that they are always evil. Like, lawful evil, way worse than an orc. If "Good" and "Evil" are physical constructs in the universe, that is to say that they exist undeniably, then I don't understand why it is alright for us to go on a rampage against a bunch of orcs but not a drow. I understand the circumstances are narrow - the orcs fired upon us, or at least their cleric master threw something at us, but pulling a dagger in a bar is about as much "asking for a fight" as ever.

That, plus being a drow, in my D&D mind = kill now, and people will thank you and sweep up his ashes. If that is NOT how we are playing, and everybody is an individual and their alignment is based strictly upon their actions (or even that Drow are a unique case by case basis or something) then I need clarification.

I think when we're viewing alignment and combat through a modern lens, we have a lot more respect for life and a lot more shock when violence erupts, but life is cheap in middle ages, especially in FANTASY middle ages where a resurrection spell costs a couple of gold down at the local temple.

So I guess what I'm getting at Ao is that my suspension of disbelief is out of whack, I'm not sure what kind of game we're playing. Are we trying to judge everybody uniquely, as humans do, through a modern light, or are "good" and "evil" physical and undeniable entities that certain people just have to be? Somewhere in between?

Also, this whole town confuses the heck out of me. It seems like a sleepy little halfling town, but just kidding its actually a huge crime ring with shadow mages and evil elves and master forgers? Did I just not understand where we were going?

[Ao]

Hey Shorjahl,

Great questions:

1) It is not a sleepy little halfling town. Esmelteran is a major city in Amn replete with direct influence by the Shadow Thieves, a very large organization of crime and assassination in the realms

2) indeed, drow are usually evil. That said, evil NPCs exist all over the realms, and may be human or otherwise. The fact that they are evil has nothing to do with whether it is criminal or otherwise to openly attack them in a public place unless they are the ones doing the attacking.

3) Dealing specifically with the drow Ktesh, he is known by the proprietor, as Custer related this place pays out to the cartel. So he definitely wouldn't be openly condoning killing the drow. And, although drow aren't liked by surface dwellers, attacking one in a city is still a crime. No different than attacking a half-Orc, etc. Really though, it's dependent on where in the realms you are. In neverwinter or Baldurs gate, a drow might not be allowed to walk about exposed without facing (forceful) arrest.

Amn is very different. It is a nation wholly driven by greed and extravagance. In Athkatla, for example, there are churches to Bane and Cyric and many other evil gods. Because they are taxpayers, people pay them no heed by and large (though any open acts of interfering or violence would likely be punished by officials unless bribed)

4) in terms of what I said about alignment, I wasn't talking about the Drow. While I think attacking Ktesh was a definitely brazen for a group that was initially looking to keep a low profile, I embrace that kind of decision making with love and passion as a story loving GM. Not to say that you wouldn't be thrown in jail if you killed him, or (more likely) hunted down by the shadow thieves.

I was speaking specifically of Kellar attacking the warrior, who was seated next to the drow and was not actively participating in the combat or threatening you in any way. The fact that he was having a conversation with your hostile target, and has his hand on his sword because combat erupted, does not make it acceptable (in the realm of good, or even neutral) alignment.

Hence, "that guy knows the bad guy with the knife and might get up to attack us!" Is what I was dealing with. Again, acknowledging that my lack of clarity might have represented it in Kellars mind as otherwise.

Luckily, he missed the fighter

Let me know if you have any other questions! These are exactly the threads I love to see

Ao

[Shorjahl]

That all makes sense. I think on my part there's a bit of disconnect between what my character knows and what I know. Sometimes I'm eager (and I'm at work, so I have to dodge my boss seeing this window open on my comp) to get a post up, and so don't take the time to ask and wait six hours before I get a response. That's my bad.

Anyway, I'm thinking that perhaps as an OOC thing at the bottom of your plot-posts Ao, you can say "Btw, it is common knowledge that people in this region do XYZ and that's cool here. So, don't kill them." Or whatever. Ben, out of character, doesn't know all of the little intricacies and details of the cities, and probably not even the broad swath kind of things Shorjahl would never, even having never set foot there.

Totally understandable about Kellar fighting the warrior. However, there's no real easy way to distinguish between "trying to kill" and "trying to detain" someone in D&D. Do you want us to make our intentions more clear in the future so we don't get into these little alignment snafus?

[Custer Thickett]

Just joining adding my 2 cents for the sake of good conversation.

Alignment considerations in this type of situation can make for dicey judgement calls. I agree, Drow are evil, and that could in some people's minds justify an immediate attack, especially if a character has a history involving either being the victim of or witness to Drow evil doings. However, the location, the bar owner asking us to stop, us having him heavily outnumbered, and the possible violation of the law might put us in a tough spot making the decision to fight one way or another. Kilik's horror at our aggressiveness is fitting considering a sense of what is or what is not honorable or lawful.

Sorry if I put the rest of ya in a bind. I was lacking a clear OOC explanation of intentions. Not very considerate given that I knew going into the post that it could come with undesirable consequences. I'll make a point to detail out my character's motivations and goals next time. I don't know if the rest of you would consider that when we get in a spot where we are thinking about doing something brash if we ask for a short pause in the thread to discuss the actions in a side thread or chat. I would assume most of you would prefer to roll with it than stop play to talk about it ooc, right?

Custer's attack, I believe, is fitting for both his character and the situation. Due to his history with K'Tesh, his confidence to act with impunity in 'his city,' his feeling threatened by K'Tesh's drawing of the dagger, having the impression the odds are in his favor, and his desire to finish what he and K'Tesh had started long ago. He is neutral, which the PHB details as "whose who prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don't take sides, doing what seems best at the time." Custer's only moral compass is the memory/voice of Agata. He has an inner conflict between being true to his name and being the man she would have wanted him to be. Considering the above and the mechanics of the Assassin build, his best move was to strike first.

As for the city, it is large and mostly human. It started out as a smaller Halfling only city, but was conquered like 1000 years ago by Humans and has since become much like other Human cities. It is known as sort of a tourist/resort town due to several factors, like climate and loose laws. That's a huge part of why it is so corrupt, along with being situated inside the borders of Amn. Think of it as Faerun's Reno.

[Ao]

Yeah perfect Shor. I'll make sure to let you know what's common knowledge in OOC. Though to be fair, Shorjahl doesn't nexessarily know about all the common cultural stuff in the realms either. Some of that will just need to be asked of NPCs

And as for the kill/detain thing, yeah being explicit is important. Even so, under no circumstances is attacking a sitting, non-attacking, suspected wrong-doer a legitimate "good/neutral" action. (Speaking about the warrior)

Cheers

[Shorjahl]

Cuss: cool. I like the idea of clear intentions, although if it isn't strictly IC knowledge, it won't really affect my posts (others' view on that may differ.) Regarding the city, I kind of gathered that, but I didn't quite understand the loose law/corruption issue was quite so widespread. I think I would have gone in much more cautious had I known that the danger levels were higher than anticipated. Shorjahl's still mostly concerned with the orc raiding party coming to the city, but it is less of an issue to him knowing that the city is full of cutthroats and thieves.

Ao: makes perfect sense. Thanks for elaborating.

[Ao]

Just as a quick aside, I didn't mean to skewer Kellar for his actions. He wrote me a PM and explained his frame of mind, which is totally legitimate.

I think I wasn't explicit enough about the fact that the warrior wasn't threatening Custer.

In the future, I will be.

Cheers
-Ao

OH: Ps - Shorjahl: in regards to the conversation about "resurrection". You should know, in my games resurrection is a very uncommon thing, usually requiring a degree of excessively dark magic, huge expense, or questionable moral stuff. In other words, its not available at every temple for 100 gp or something like that.

[Shorjahl]

Oh good!

But life is still cheap. Especially for the common man. Rough life makes violence easier. Just my two cents. But Im glad resurrection isn't common.

[Kellar]

Hey all,

Just wanted to share my character's perspective on events and how he reacted and acted as he did.
AO,

I read your rant during your post to keep the campaign along and I have to say that I disagree with your interpretation that Kellar's actions are out of alignment.

When he observes custer being threatened by Ktesh, as a dragoon (soldier) he identifies threats and determines a course of action that provides defense against harm to himself or his companions. In most combat situations their fight or flight response kicks in and they commit to their actions even if they are diminished.

In this case, Kellar would have certainly hurled the javelin at the warrior across from Ktesh, based on his appearance, his hand on his sword hilt and his proximity to custer in that given situation. I believe that although he was sitting down, it would not change his attempt at harming custer or the rest of the group.

Reacting to the situation, and planning a counterattack if the situation got out of hand wouldn't necessarily affect Kellar's alignment. Whether or not the fight took place in a public place or a hidden cave, the reaction to the situation that was role played out from a soldier's perspective.

I understand your perspective, and if Kellar's reactions fall out of your ideals for alignment then I will abide by them. I believe that Kellar's actions were not out of alignment. I don't rules lawyer when I play, and in reviewing the alignment section of the PHB, it is pretty broad in the explanation for neutral good characters. Well all alignments in that regard... Like I said, I'll go by what you believe is a violation of alignment, although my thoughts are that he reacted how a soldier would react to a threat.


Kellar

[Ao]

Makes sense kell thanks

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